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Why global DEI efforts are vital to create a better working world

In this episode of The Better Heroes podcast, host Matt C. Smith talks to Julie Linn Teigland and Gabriela Ramos about DEI in the workforce.

Key takeaways:

The EY Ripples program, can help reduce inequality through the time of EY people who are dedicating part of their workday to social impact programs.
In today’s increasingly diverse societies, UNESCO continues to accomplish its fundamental humanist mission every day to support people in facing contemporary challenges, understanding each other and working together to build lasting peace.

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For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.

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Julie Teigland

I think every organization has to embrace conscious leadership when it comes to equality. No matter what your rank is, no matter what your organization is, everyone can be a champion of that equality from where you were at school to after your retirement. And we need to teach this to our children. And corporate has a role in this. There's no business without equity.

Gabriela Ramos

The reality is there are so many beautiful things happening, so many unsung champions that are just putting their little bit to build a better world, and there are many, many beautiful stories happening all around the world, including with my dear Julie, and with all the people that are fighting for these fights, because we have a mission and I love people with a mission.

Matt C. Smith

The truth is humanity can save itself and our planet. And right at this very moment, there’s someone who took on the challenge — and is on a path to solving an incredibly tough, global problem. This podcast was created to tell you about them.

You’re listening to Better Heroes, a show from the global EY organization about the untold stories of entrepreneurs devoting their lives to impactful innovation. I’m your host, Matt C Smith.

Over the past two episodes of Better Heroes, we’ve heard from impact entrepreneurs who are solving the world’s toughest problems with unique solutions. But they can’t do it all alone. In this episode, we dive deeper into the topic of diversity, equity and inclusion with Julie Teigland and Gabriela Ramos. Julie is EY EMEIA Area Managing Partner and Gabriela is Assistant Director-General for Social and Human Sciences at UNESCO.

To solve global problems, the private sector has to work with the public sector; countries have to work across borders, and businesses, both small and large, have to band together. With Julie and Gabriela’s help, we’ll look at the barriers that face DE&I (diversity, equity and Inclusion) efforts, and we’ll look at how everyone can take part in driving solutions.

As always, we kick off the show by learning more about what drives our guests …

Teigland

I grew up with a very, very strong mother. My mother had four children. Back in the 1950s, she was also a hairdresser, a learned hairdresser. She quit her job when she got pregnant, and after having those four children, she decided to go back to school. My mother became an engineer and was one of the world's first engineers working in design engineering for one of the largest OEMs. She was a hero. My mom really pioneered the way. And along that way, she gave me quite a bit of values around diversity and inclusion and what it means and the tough times actually sharing those stories around the dinner table that she had. I have a daughter. I have four children now, but one daughter. I want to make sure that she doesn't have to wait till her grandkids to have an equal chance for everything she wants to do in life. And so that's why I'm really passionate. I wouldn't say it's the date of my daughter's birth, but I've been passionate for a long time, my friend.

Smith

So, a strong role model, Julie. That's sort of the takeaway I've taken from that, which is interesting because you've obviously become a very strong role model yourself.

Teigland

I hope so. I try. I think a role model is such a big thing. My mother was clearly one for me. I hope I can do the same for others. But I am really resonant of the responsibility that we have in our generation, Gabriela, you and I, to lead the way for others to have it easier as they look to do whatever they want to do. And that's what I think it's about. It's not about becoming any one thing. It's about having the possibility to do whatever you want.

Smith

That is so well said. I think that's the perfect transition to you Gabriela, your work with UNESCO, which is all about the achievement of social inclusion and gender equality. And it's always something that I'm curious about. Was there a pivotal moment in your background and your past where you thought, “wait a minute; this isn't just; I have to take a step,” Gabriela?

Ramos

Well, I guess it's always starting with the family, as Julie mentioned. If you have a family where there is no tolerance for people living with no dignity, you just learn it, by watching what your parents do, not only in terms of embedding this idea that you need to fulfill your full potential, which I feel exactly the same as Julie. My parents, my mom and my dad, were always like, “you will reach the skies, but also you will reach these skies to serve others and not to be immune when people suffer.” And I come from Mexico, where inequality is really everywhere. And when I moved to France 15 years ago, I thought, well, I'm going to get into a very egalitarian society. Surprise, even the most advanced economies have these cleavages between those that have everything and those that have nothing that you cannot stand idle. And therefore, since I started my work 25 years ago, I have been focusing on how we ensure that we have fair societies. And I'm very grateful to have the opportunity to work now here at UNESCO in the Social and Human Sciences, because it’s right at the core of the debate because we need scientific evidence to define how do we avoid that. The major trends, climate inequalities, demography and digital, continue producing societies that are unsustainably divided. And that's what drives me. But more than anything, when you look at kids that don't have a chance in life, when you look at the young people that with their full potential, they cannot really get their fair chance in life. I think that most of you and this is what has been pushing me to be where I am and looking for the jobs that I have and also with the very strong gender component.

Smith

Back to Julie's point, they're about giving the opportunity to those and everyone and having equal access. I believe it's one of the United Nations Sustainability Development Goals, equal opportunity and access to all to work, to social mobility. But Gabriela, so social inclusion, how do you define social inclusion?

Ramos

Well, I would say that is exactly the opposite of what we have now. If you have the top income earners getting 50%, 60% of the GDP or 80% of the wealth, and you have girls in Afghanistan not being able to go to school — something is really wrong.

Smith

I want everyone to listen closely. Equity is a global issue. Even if we make progress in one part of the world, we have to make sure no one is left behind.

Ramos

Therefore, for us, for UNESCO, social justice means societies where everybody lives with dignity and has fair chances. And that's why when you see the agenda that we have here at the Social and Human Sciences, of course, UNESCO's inclusion has cultural, has many other contributions to make, but in particular, in my sector, is looking at the chances for people. We're looking at how to support youth development. We're looking at how to help gender or women's development. We're looking at how to counter racism and discrimination with a big global forum. We're looking at the ethical development of technologies. But ethics has to do with fair outcomes, nondiscriminatory outcomes, and with changing mindsets. We are even using sports to advance this agenda. But the whole point is how do we ensure that the opportunities that are created by our modern economy, by this amazing, innovative global economy that we have, can be distributed in the everyday? And this is about policies, this is about evidence, and this is about some empathy, some compassion, and some policies that will help us build bridges between people.

Smith

Gabriela, just to follow up with you about these methodologies and policies you mentioned. What can we adopt to help push forward inclusion and these anti-discrimination agendas?

Ramos

Well, let me tell you that there are several tools that we have for doing so. First, of course, we need to recognize that probably the way we have been developing economic policies in the last three decades, just focusing on efficiency and providing markets with the full scope for further development — the globalization process. I don't think this is really as well developed as it should be, considering equality and sustainability. So, first of all, we need to change the metrics that we use to measure economic and social progress. And this is something that Secretary Guterres, in his common agenda, is calling everybody to do.

Smith

António Guterres, is the Secretary-General of the UN. He launched the common agenda in 2021 at the UN’s 75th anniversary. It sets out goals and initiatives for the next 25 years that, he says, could make or break the future of our planet. Gabriela agrees that a renewed focus and effort toward equality is crucial.

Ramos

We need to move away from GDP and GDP per capita because it really blurs everything that is wrong. You cannot see the distributional impact, but you can see the environmental impact, and therefore, the metrics that we use should go beyond and needs to be multi-dimensional. But on the other hand, I think that we have been focusing too much on maximizing profits. And this is also to the call of business, the shareholder value, the maximizing consumption, maximizing production without, again, taking a look at the distributional impact and environmental disasters that we have with climate change. And therefore, I think that first and foremost, the methodologies need to change in my program, there is the managing of social transformation. We released a report and received societies calling for equality and sustainability to be prioritized when taking decisions. But we are also looking at people, and we are looking at the specific rights of people to develop their own capacities. And therefore, I think it's also important that we put people at the center, not numbers, not general ideas, just people. How do they fair, and how do we ensure that we provide with the support systems? And we are calling also for a new social contract because we saw it with COVID-19. Half of the population in the world was not protected. Half of the population of the world did not have health services, did not have employment protection systems. I mean, this really requires a full rethought on how do we build the policies and the institutions that will serve people better and how do we ensure that the benefits of growth are better distributed and actually in a way that is not a top-down approach, but also listening to what all these stakeholders have to say, and this is what we're trying to build here at UNESCO with all of our programs.

Smith

I think that's so well said, Gabriela, and maybe the perfect transition to you, Julie, and obviously from the business context, the corporate angle there. Now, I know you're very active, and as an organization, EY is as well in favor of all those changes. The rule rewriting you just mentioned, Gabriela. But I wanted to take some context away from that social inclusion and put it back to that gender economic gap. Julie, and give some context for everyone, all of us listening to this. What is this global gender gap?

Teigland

The global gender gap around the fact that women are not offered equal opportunity across the world, whether that's in terms of opportunity, in terms of pay, in terms of economic, social, or financial. The entire package is not set to an even standard. That is the global gender gap. And actually, Matt, in the context of the work that's done with the World Economic Forum, it's measured each year in terms of how long it would take based on the plane of changes from a legal from a policy perspective, how long it will take for us to reach a level of equal opportunity. And right now, that gender gap is measured way over 120 years. And I know WEF this year will come out with some new studies, but I don't expect that to have changed dramatically, unfortunately, since the last one.

Smith

That was my follow-up question. Do you think of any significant movements and changes? And then a follow-up to that would be why? Why have we not made any changes? Was COVID-19 the reason? Are we blaming that? What have been the issues that have prevented us from actually progressing and reducing that number? which I'd just like to reiterate for a second, 120 years is the current estimate. However, every time I speak about this estimate, I feel like it actually increases.

Teigland

It's true. It increases. But I think we have to be cognizant of the fact that we have reached some positive change. I think the fact that you're doing this podcast with Gabriela and I in the roles that we have, demonstrates that there is change. There's just not an equal measure of change across the globe. And Gabriela is definitely the queen of all the statistics around this. But I can tell you that as we see some of the changes, we have to take into account what's happened in the past year. COVID-19 has had a dramatic effect on the global gender gap. More women are responsible for home care, whether that's for children or parents, which is, by definition, unpaid care, than anyone else in society. And that alone has a drag both on GDP. To Gabriela's comment before us why it's an inadequate measure, but also in terms of providing that equal opportunity and giving women an equal chance to take part in the economy. Now, I also want to be straight that not all of the changes that are required just have to do with economics. Some have to do with the legal environment, with human rights, with possibilities on this angle as well. And so, there's a lot of work to do on all fronts. But I don't want to take away from the fact that we have made progress. It's just not fast enough and not deep enough for it to be really effective.

Smith

And I think there's an example that you, as an organization, are trying to speed that by being a catalyst in it, with EY Women. Fast Forward initiative. Would you mind telling us a little bit about that?

Teigland

Our Women. Fast Forward initiative is something that we called into cards in the context of around eight years ago. We put a giant ice block in Davos, actually, and said it would be faster for the ice block to melt than it would be for women to make progress. And we did it as a visual sign. But it was really our attempt to really get involved in saying we need to raise the issue that gender equality is not nice to have. It's an economic imperative.

Smith

The World Economic Forum holds its annual meeting in Davos, Switzerland. It’s a meeting of business and government leaders across countries and sectors. It was important to EY teams and Julie to call attention to gender equality to the leaders and changemakers present.

Teigland

Many of the women that we see, especially in the least developed countries, women are the economic drivers of the entire community. And so, it's really important for us to help support them. So, what do we, as EY, do across the board? We've gotten involved politically; we're engaged. I remember Gabriela and I at one of the very first when it was called into formation to make sure that the issue was put in a global context on the agenda. But we equally support loads of entrepreneurs. We have an EY Winning Women program that supports entrepreneurs across the globe in order to help them network, to help them develop. We do quite a bit of supporting women on boards with education, nomination, community drive to help. In that context, we're doing an amazing amount of work for Women. Fast Forward and the EY STEM app that we've launched, providing education to young girls and women, aged 13 onward, to provide digital education. We have an EY Ripples program which wants to positively impact 1 billion lives by 2030. And that really means that we can reduce inequality through the time of our people who are dedicating part of their workday to social impact programs. Last year, we had 91,000 people taking part in those programs. I am incredibly proud of that.

Smith

All of our impact entrepreneurs that we have talked to, and will talk to on Better Heroes, are part of the EY Ripples program. Julie and Gabriela are calling on businesses around the world to take part in Equity and Inclusion work and build other social impact initiatives.

Teigland

I think every organization has to embrace conscious leadership when it comes to equality. No matter what your rank, no matter what your organization is, everyone can be a champion of that equality from where you were at school to after your retirement. And we need to teach this to our children. And corporate has a role in this. There's no business without equity.

Smith

You talk about this conscious leadership, you know, being proactive in changing mindsets, if not changing, but educating first and allowing those minds to change in their own conscious ability. So how do we overcome these unconscious biases? The first place is self-awareness.

Ramos

Well, the fact is that this is something that I think that Julie and I and many of the people and institutions that have been working on gender issues are very aware of. Because you can legislate equality, which is very important. Not all countries have legislated equality, even for gender or for LGBT or for groups that are marginalized. But first, you need to legislate. You need to have the incentives you have. You need to have the policies. But if you don't change these cultural norms and these institutional settings that are reproducing the behavioral patterns that deliver inequality, I completely agree with you. I think that the fact is that we really need to be cautious about what kind of cultural norms are informing our behavior. And this has to do with gender, of course, as you said, the behavioral differences between men and women, men being more competitive and taught to be more competitive and women to be more lenient and more understanding. These are learned behaviors that are distributed across cultural norms everywhere around the world. There is no single country that doesn't have these gender biases. But on the other hand, you also have the question of racism and discrimination. Because in the end, you start classifying people according to your own prejudices, and you start essentializing all of them because all of them are Muslims, because all of them are Jewish, because all of them are white, because all of them are. And then you confirm your own denominations, and explanations will come through. So first and foremost, be aware and try as an institution, as an organization, as a country, to make sure that everybody is aware of those prejudices because we all have them. We all have been taught in certain ways and to be comfortable with our identity. Many times, you have to neglect the identities of others to be more comfortable. And therefore, it's very important that this is work, but this is also important that we build the systems to counter them. We build a system with what is not okay to discriminate based on gender, based on race, based on origins, based on anything.

Smith

Legislative and cultural change is essential to creating equity. To illustrate this point, Gabriela explains that female caregivers are often left behind by both society and governments. The UN’s International Labour Organization, or ILO, has studies that show caregiving contributes to the economy in a major way. The work many women do at home is essential, but it often leads to a lack of financial independence.

Ramos

When we were in the COVID-19 period, we got to see that the essential workers were more important than ever, the health workers, the social workers, those that were in the service sector, those that were delivering the goods, taking care of the elderly, the job that keeps the schools. These are women that outperform in the economy, paid or unpaid; when they are paid it is very low pay. And it's wrong because it is the most important function that our society should be provided with in terms of supporting kids’ development and supporting women to be in jobs. But these are very low-quality jobs. And on the other hand, they're not paid. And the ILO has really come with huge figures, three million of contributions that women make to the economy by the UN, paid for it by taking care of children, by taking care of the housework, by taking care of the elderly, non-remunerated. I don't know how can we depict a society that is more of a burden that you're not paid; you do the job. You're beaten because violence against women is on the rise. And then we need to change. We need to change. And for a start, I would say that we are working to try to make the unpaid work. And I did it when I was in the Council of Economic Advisers of the Chancellor. We need to include this care economy work in the national accounts and remunerate, even if it is only symbolic. But to make sure that women that work so hard are not just neglected or ignored.

Teigland

At least taken care of in terms of pension. I'm very, very, very passionate of that. If you want to keep it unpaid for the current period, that's maybe that's okay. Maybe that's necessary for now. But it's clearly not in any way acceptable that they are not eligible for this time to be credited toward the national pension schemes. And that's where I feel like we are really cheating on both sides, not just the current but also the future of those women. And that's what worries me, even for developed economies.

Ramos

It's not only because developed economies are the ones that have the numbers, but it is exactly the same in the informal economy, where women are overrepresented. But on top of it, Julie, even those that quote for their pensions because of the breakups in their careers, because of the lower pay, because of the lower contributions, they finish with 30% or 40% less pension contributions than men. And it's only because they're taking care of the family, which should be something that is shared. And will be to see men stand up and take up your responsibilities regarding the care economy.

Smith

We only need to go back so many tens of years to experience a very different world. Common racial opinions, prejudice, opinions toward gender, right pay and equality, so each generation that progresses has children, etc., and moves on does maintain some of those generational chains. So, I was raised with maybe, if you went back three, four generations, 12 and a half percent of the mindset of my great grandfather; for example, we raised my grandfather and raised my father. He raised me, and I plan to raise children one day. I look forward to that very much. But I feel like we're at that point in time now, where we have to break the chain. Now, you talk about that mentality creating conscious leaders. How do we break that chain, and do we start with your examples for both of you having strong parents who placed value in you as identifying as women in the workplace, going down governmental routes, going down business routes? How do we break that chain going forward? Who's responsible for breaking the chain?

Teigland

I think we are responsible. I personally don't want to let our generation off the hook, Matt, and say it's the next. We're going to pass the buck. We are responsible as leaders. You have a responsibility, whether you're in business, whether you're in government policy, to act. I do think we have to break the chain because the progress continues the way it's been. To be honest, it's glacial at best. It's a slow, very slow-moving glacier. It's not going to get us where we need to go. And I think about how to break the chain. I actually think we all need to look in the mirror to the point that you were raising before about unconscious bias. That's the piece that everyone can do. I think when it comes to leaders, I think leaders need to make sure that they're doing more than just stopping unconscious bias, that they are contributing to positive equity across the board. And that goes a long way to what Gabriela was saying, moving from shareholder capitalism or to stakeholder capitalism, which means building positive social equity in your organization. You cannot just follow the profitable route and think that you're the hero and you've done everything you have to give back, not only to your customers, not only to your employees but to the wider society. I think that's crucial. And I think there's a third component to this, and I think this is the place where Gabriela is doing absolutely amazing work. I think we need to make sure that we're building not only each person, not only each company, but we're building a wider societal ecosystem that includes policies and laws that enable equity. And today, I have to say, and it's not just in the least developed countries across the board, we do not even have the legal frameworks to allow this.

Smith

Julie emphasizes that equity work needs to be done by individuals, by businesses, and by governments.

Teigland

So, Matt, you know, I think it's really wonderful. I've spent the last 30 years across Europe living in fantastic places where we have less of a problem. But I say less of a problem. In some places, women have a value less than the carpet. In some places, they do not have access to financial instruments like a credit card or a bank account. And think of what people are today if you're not allowed to get your own telephone. I think these are real issues that we have to demand; all of us need to demand that policymakers take action on. And so, I think there are three things everyone plays a part to do the small exercise that you say, know yourself. We love to look for people that look like us. We need to break that. We need to challenge companies to do their part above and beyond getting profits. And we need to challenge our policymakers and our governments to do the right thing, to set the ecosystem, to set the frameworks that allow us to achieve that. And that's not only a legal perspective; it's also financial and economic. We do not have those today. The representation of women on boards, the equal pay, the disclosures that we're asking for on disability. I can give you a million examples of where we do not have an equal ecosystem playing field. And Gabriela, I'm sure you have a lot more to add on that, but that would be my big three, Matt, in terms of no, we can't pass the buck.

Ramos

I completely agree with Julie. I think that just look at the kind of world we have built. And I feel that even though we have been trying to push for inclusive societies and outcomes, we are at a very, very dangerous point in the sense that the financial crisis of 2008, with crisis now we are with the world, Ukraine, the energy crises, food prices, inflation, all of those things are affecting more those at the bottom. All of these people that feel that life has been unfair are producing outcomes in our democratic processes that have given rise to populism and to two very different ways of governments that are not open as we want them. And therefore, the world is complex. But I also think that in building those solutions, we need to listen to others. And I feel one group that deserves to be listened, and I know you, and I say it with conviction because my sector is also in charge of youth policies, is young people.

In our 50-something offices, all around the world, at UNESCO, we have seen how much young people go and deliver for good. They build their own social impact NGOs. They help the neighbor. And I think that we should build from them because I feel that they have a lot to tell us, and we need to get them to into the table.

If we have half of the population less than 30 years old, but only a few of them represented in the Parliament or in the Congress of the people or around the legislative action, I think that we are not making a great service, and the more diverse, as Julie also mentioned, the more diverse your team, the more diverse the discussions, the more open to listen to the views of very different stakeholders and groups of people, the more we might get solutions right. And we really are in a very deep need to get the solutions right.

Smith

More diverse input, more diverse output. So quick question, quick answer, if you don't mind. Julie, What gives you hope?

Teigland

The young people that Gabriela just mentioned give me hope. The power of technology gives me hope. The focus on sustainability gives me hope. Matt, we can do everything when we put our minds to it. And COVID-19 demonstrated that, right? Never before has so much innovation done so much good in such a short period of time. You put those young people, give them the right skills, the right power, the right empowerment. And I'm confident we can do anything we need. And technology is fueling that. Tempered by our focus on sustainability, I think we have a huge opportunity putting humans at the center and allowing that technology to take force over things like A.I. that are changing the world. I think that's going to help us go further, faster. So, I'm not giving up, and I'm certainly not satisfied with those 120 years. I think we can do this. And that's my message also to the young people listening to your podcast. Get engaged, get active. We can make a real difference. Create a ripple.

Smith

Gabriela, same question for you. What's giving you hope today?

Ramos

I would say that I really think Julie got it right. These are young people. It really gives me hope. Young girls, strong young boys that are really taking issues into their hands and delivering concrete messages. If you think about the fact that all these, for example, the manifestations in Iran, the migrants that come to the rescue, these are young people, very young people, and therefore we need to give them a chance. But I'm also hopeful that science will help us. Social and Human Sciences are really needed. And I don't say it as self-serving because I'm in the Social and Human Sciences at UNESCO. But the reality is that if we want to get it right on diversity, inequality, sustainability, we need to have a more disciplinary approach. And that's what we are also pushing. We cannot just go for silos. We need to integrate the analysis in a complex system to understand that the digital, the economic, the climate, the gender, all of these things are compounded, and we need to understand the drivers. And finally, civil society gives me a lot of hope. I think that is not as reported as it should be. We always see these headlines that get us very, very worried. But the reality is there are so many beautiful things happening, so many champions, unsung champions that are just putting their little bit to build a better world. And I'm hopeful that they will have to have more prime time than the bad news that we always get in the news. But there are many, many beautiful stories happening all around the world, including with my dear Julie and with all the people that are fighting for these fights because we have a mission, and they love people with a mission.

Smith

Gabriela, Julie, thank you so much for, as I said, enlightening us on this journey to understand and better move and mindsets and shift unconscious biases away from gender inequality, and improve our social inclusion. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart from everyone at this podcast that is Better Heroes. Talk to you soon.

Thank you all for joining me on this episode of Better Heroes. You can learn more about Gabriela at unesco.org/inclusivepolicylab. You can learn more about Julie at EY.com. And you can learn more about EY Ripples and all our impact entrepreneurs at www.ey.com/eyripples. Links are in our show notes.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast, Better Heroes, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also rate and leave our show a review to help others find out about the amazing work of our impact entrepreneurs. Before we go, we’d like to thank our podcast producers Hueman Group Media, who helped us bring this show to life (pronounced “human”).

That’s it for today’s episode. We’ll be back next week.

Better Heroes is a project of EY Ripples, a global program to mobilize people across the EY network to help solve the world's most urgent social and environmental challenges. By extending EY skills, knowledge and experience to impact entrepreneurs on a not-for-profit basis and forging collaborations with like-minded organizations, EY Ripples is helping scale new technologies and business models that are purposefully driving progress toward the UN’s 17 sustainable development goals.

The views of third parties set out in this podcast are not necessarily the views of the global EY organization or its member firms. Moreover, they should be seen in the context of the time they were made.

Presenters

Julie Teigland

EY EMEIA Area Managing Partner; EY Global Leader, Women. Fast forward

Matt C Smith

Professional MC, Broadcaster & Host, The Lunicorn

Gabriela Ramos

Assistant Director-General for Social and Human Sciences of UNESCO

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Episode 12

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Why global DEI efforts are vital to create a better working world

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Julie Teigland

Matt C Smith

Gabriela Ramos

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